The future of Norway's monarchy

[Rearden]

Thanks for the info Reardon. I hope that parliament and Beatrix pass the law that would enable Maxima to become Queen consort.

I prefer how things are unless the princes married to the heir could become kings, too. Anyway I doubt that they will change it.  

[Rearden]

Well if family history is taken into consideration, then there's a double whammy against MM. Her father was an absolute disgrace and frequented strip joints and brothels. He then married a decades younger stripper shortly before he died. 

 

I didn't know about that.

[Amagerpigen]

Given Haakon's popularity, I don't see any reason why the Norwegian monarchy should collapse before he gets the throne. Unlike Belgium, Norway is politically a very stable country, with a fairly homogenous population - and it does take a lot to get the Norwegian population up in arms about something. People are more fed up about their taxes on alcohol, import taxes, death duties, and so on, than the bits that go to the royal family, from what I've gathered, and then the irritation goes more towards whatever government is currently sitting than the King. 

The long-sitting Kings have been somewhat of a problem for the next in line for ages - King Haakon sat on the throne from 1905 to 1957, and took the country through WWII, and when his son was up for the throne, people were doubting that Olav could do it. When King Olav passed away in 1991, people were doubting that Harald could do the job... and then came the whole debacle with the renovations of the royal palace almost straight afterwards. (By that point, Harald'd weathered a storm season on the North West coast of Norway, the Lillehammer Olympics had taken place, etc. so it was the wife who was vilified in the press as a primadonna with expensive taste)

I've talked to some younger Norwegian friends about the monarchy, and all of the ones I've talked to, don't see MM as a liability in this context at all. In fact, most of them are impressed with how she's matured since the marriage, and how she's engaged with serious causes. (And these are people who made fun of her accidents and past in their graduation parades on May 17th, 8-10years ago).

In time, I do think that there will be a change to republic, but if the Norwegian monarchy continues to adapt as they're currently doing (down-sizing the amount of people who will get support from the state, reaching out to people through the media that they use, etc), it definitely sounds plausible that it will keep on for a while longer.

The question of Norway becoming a republic is taken up each Parliamentary period by one of the political parties, since Sonja and Harald married, and last vote on that proposition in parliament was in May this year - the proposition gained 17 yes votes (for republic and 125 no votes (against republic).

[getafix]

excellent post Armagerpigen

G

[royal observer]

Given Haakon's popularity, I don't see any reason why the Norwegian monarchy should collapse before he gets the throne. Unlike Belgium, Norway is politically a very stable country, with a fairly homogenous population - and it does take a lot to get the Norwegian population up in arms about something. People are more fed up about their taxes on alcohol, import taxes, death duties, and so on, than the bits that go to the royal family, from what I've gathered, and then the irritation goes more towards whatever government is currently sitting than the King. 

The long-sitting Kings have been somewhat of a problem for the next in line for ages - King Haakon sat on the throne from 1905 to 1957, and took the country through WWII, and when his son was up for the throne, people were doubting that Olav could do it. When King Olav passed away in 1991, people were doubting that Harald could do the job... and then came the whole debacle with the renovations of the royal palace almost straight afterwards. (By that point, Harald'd weathered a storm season on the North West coast of Norway, the Lillehammer Olympics had taken place, etc. so it was the wife who was vilified in the press as a primadonna with expensive taste)

I've talked to some younger Norwegian friends about the monarchy, and all of the ones I've talked to, don't see MM as a liability in this context at all. In fact, most of them are impressed with how she's matured since the marriage, and how she's engaged with serious causes. (And these are people who made fun of her accidents and past in their graduation parades on May 17th, 8-10years ago).

In time, I do think that there will be a change to republic, but if the Norwegian monarchy continues to adapt as they're currently doing (down-sizing the amount of people who will get support from the state, reaching out to people through the media that they use, etc), it definitely sounds plausible that it will keep on for a while longer.

The question of Norway becoming a republic is taken up each Parliamentary period by one of the political parties, since Sonja and Harald married, and last vote on that proposition in parliament was in May this year - the proposition gained 17 yes votes (for republic and 125 no votes (against republic).

MM is definitely more accepted and popular with the younger generation in Norway. However, a lot of the older generation still thinks that she isn't fit to be CP never mind Queen consort and I agree with them!

[blue j]

Wow, amagerpigen what a great post you wrote.   I don't have same knowledge of Norway's history, and I don't know people from Norway-just one cousin of mine lived in Norway for 10 years,
Here are my two cents -I just get my opinion on what I can read online.

I think that Norwegian monarchy may end with Harald.  But I don’t think it has anything to do with Mette.
I read last poll about popularity of monarchy in Norway.  King Harald was first, then Sonja, next Haakon and then MM.  It seems that Mette is at least popular of four, but paradoxically it is not really bad. IMO, it should be this way when the ruling king is the most popular of all royals and not e.g. crown princess-consort or even crown prince.  Obviously for monarchy it’s better if ruling king is a popular person number one.
So, low popularity of MM may seem bad, but the most important is that Norwegians like the ruling king the most, not a princess who will never rule but will be just a consort. So the order of popularity of members of royal family is the way it should be.  

How much I like Mathilde of Belgium, who  is a perfect princess IMO, it is not good sign that she is more popular than king Albert—it is not good for future monarchy.

But despite the correct order of popularity of Norway's royal family members I mentioned  above, something wrong is going on in the kingdom.  
 Based on polls I have read, support for monarchy is weaker and weaker.  It is that people see it less and less relevant.  The best proof of it is that any time Harald makes some bold statement about politics, he gets a lot of critics from Norwegian media that he wants to be involved politics too much.  People in Norway, based on what I read, seem to perceive monarchy as more and more outdated institution.
On the other hand, when MM and Haakon married many criticized Haakon’s choice of bride; but somehow most Norwegians moved on quickly and were not lamenting about MM as a future queen. IMO it was not because suddenly they began to accept her but because they did not care. In later years , after H & MM wedding , monarchy popularity went down-but it had nothing to do with MM-again JMO.
Mette is very inappropriate as a royal consort. But if a monarchy is weak, one consort, popular or not , will not change a lot. In Norway, it seems that monarchy will just die on its own, quietly, without revolution, because the society seem to want it this way.

[Amagerpigen]

I read last poll about popularity of monarchy in Norway.  King Harald was first, then Sonja, next Haakon and then MM.

. Do you have a link? I've never read a poll about the popularity of the Norwegian RF that has Sonja high up - the order is generally Harald, Haakon, Sonja, Mette-Marit - Märtha Louise has been last ever since she started to talk to angels, but before that she tended to go before her mother, iirc.

In Norway, it seems that monarchy will just die on its own, quietly, without revolution, because the society seem to want it this way.

I actually agree with you on this, but I think the timing will take longer than a change of monarch to do so. Will Haakon end up in Stortinget, formally changing over the "power". I think so. Will Ingrid Alexandra? Who knows.

In April this year, republican newspaper Dagbladet had a poll done (published 03.04.2010 on page 7 of the paper edition), where they asked about whether or not the Norwegian people thought that Norway should still be a monarchy - 67% of the responding thought that it should be. 61% of those between 18 and 29 thinks it should be.  (Up from 59% for the general polled, and 49% for the young, straight after the wedding in 2001, btw). It is still loads lower than the 90- almost 100% support the monarchy had after WWII in the population, but imo, those numbers were on an all time high because of the circumstances.

It is still lower numbers than the 79% Denmark had last year, but then the Norwegian media does not have a Billedbladet equivalent. The Swedish support for the monarchy is even lower - before the wedding, barely half of the population supported the institution. http://www.berlingske.dk/...vensk-monarki-styrtdykker

The Norwegians elected a monarch in 1905 rather than going for a president, and I think at some point there might be a referendum about it again. Do I think it will be within the next ten years? Who knows, but it doesn't seem likely.

There might be a referendum on whether or not Norway should join the European Union long before a referendum on the monarchy happens.

(All this barring that Haakon should pass away before IA turns 18, in which case I believe a regency might be enough to start a debate)

[Rearden]

Thank you everyone your posts are really interesting   

do you think that if in Sweden and norways the actual consorts and the future ones were royals would the monarchy have more popularity? And how the royals have behave: angels, playboy style... has influence the popularity? Or it is just that the country thinks that the monarchy is something from the past? 

[Maria]

Thank you everyone your posts are really interesting   

do you think that if in Sweden and norways the actual consorts and the future ones were royals would the monarchy have more popularity? And how the royals have behave: angels, playboy style... has influence the popularity? Or it is just that the country thinks that the monarchy is something from the past? 

For me - as a Dane obviously - I think it would have made a difference had Frederik married someone "from a higher class". I think it probably didn't matter so much with Alexandra - because she was never going to become queen and because she did such a good job - but with Mary, it has just been so obvious, that she had to be transformed into another person in order to fit in. All the bull the magazines write about her being "born for the job" = It has really ruined the notion of royalty for me. They ain't royal no more! The queen will just be a fake bogan from Tasmania.

[blue j]

I read last poll about popularity of monarchy in Norway.  King Harald was first, then Sonja, next Haakon and then MM.

. Do you have a link? I've never read a poll about the popularity of the Norwegian RF that has Sonja high up - the order is generally Harald, Haakon, Sonja, Mette-Marit - Märtha Louise has been last ever since she started to talk to angels, but before that she tended to go before her mother, iirc.

In Norway, it seems that monarchy will just die on its own, quietly, without revolution, because the society seem to want it this way.

I actually agree with you on this, but I think the timing will take longer than a change of monarch to do so. Will Haakon end up in Stortinget, formally changing over the "power". I think so. Will Ingrid Alexandra? Who knows.

In April this year, republican newspaper Dagbladet had a poll done (published 03.04.2010 on page 7 of the paper edition), where they asked about whether or not the Norwegian people thought that Norway should still be a monarchy - 67% of the responding thought that it should be. 61% of those between 18 and 29 thinks it should be.  (Up from 59% for the general polled, and 49% for the young, straight after the wedding in 2001, btw). It is still loads lower than the 90- almost 100% support the monarchy had after WWII in the population, but imo, those numbers were on an all time high because of the circumstances.

It is still lower numbers than the 79% Denmark had last year, but then the Norwegian media does not have a Billedbladet equivalent. The Swedish support for the monarchy is even lower - before the wedding, barely half of the population supported the institution. http://www.berlingske.dk/...vensk-monarki-styrtdykker

The Norwegians elected a monarch in 1905 rather than going for a president, and I think at some point there might be a referendum about it again. Do I think it will be within the next ten years? Who knows, but it doesn't seem likely.

There might be a referendum on whether or not Norway should join the European Union long before a referendum on the monarchy happens.

(All this barring that Haakon should pass away before IA turns 18, in which case I believe a regency might be enough to start a debate)

Yes,Amagerpigen, this is the poll I mean. I saw this poll discussed on TRF a few months ago. My memory is really bad,  , I mixed up couple things -especially ranking for Sonja and Haakon. . I should have made research to refresh my memory before posting.
Yep, I also remember that Norwegian royals popularity was lower in 2001 than today, but if I think that in recent years the general trend is that support for monarchy is going down.
And your post is great again.

[Paddy1311]

The only one I like a bit is Mathilde, Maxima has the personality to be a good queen but her father's past for me makes her lose a lot of points  

The rest....  

I understand where you come from Rearden, but I for myself don't necessarily judge by anybody's forefathers. Otherwise I would have to round up all royalty in the world (and some other people for that matter) and put them under the guillotine.

I agree but at the same time I disagree  For me a future queen should not have anything dirty in her past or her family's past, if anyone can become queen the monarchy loses their meaning.

Well if family history is taken into consideration, then there's a double whammy against MM. Her father was an absolute disgrace and frequented strip joints and brothels. He then married a decades younger stripper shortly before he died. 

Mette Marit can't be held accountable for the actions of her idiot father. Just as Maxima can't be held accountable for the actions of her father. Who was a minister in a murderous miltary junta!.

Anyway, Mette Marit was pretty much estranged from her father. Or had a tense relationship with him. Which is an indication that she didn't approve of his behaviour.

[norwegianne]

Mette-Marit and her father were estranged to the point that she chose to walk into her wedding with Haakon, instead of being escorted by her father up the aisle as was the Norwegian tradition... It was not helped by the fact that he also talked about writing a book about Marius.

The antics of Sven O. Høiby was not something people blamed on Mette-Marit at all.

[Gwen]

Mette Marit can't be held accountable for the actions of her idiot father. Just as Maxima can't be held accountable for the actions of her father. Who was a minister in a murderous miltary junta!.

I agree about Mette Marit, her father was out of her life for many years, and one thing about her that I like is that she has never pretended that her background was anything but ordinary, no talk of how 'one' is so perfect for the job.

About Maxima, I agree in essence, but I dislike her tacit support for her father's involvement in the military junta. Her words at the time of the engagement, that he did his best for agriculture as minister, were not the unequivocal rejection of the evils perpetrated by the military dictators in her home country that I would have liked, regardless of what her father did or didn't do. I understand her loyalty to her father, but as the wife of the future king of the Netherlands she should have left no doubt of where she stood, whatever her private political sympathies may be.

[michelle j]

Mette-Marit and her father were estranged to the point that she chose to walk into her wedding with Haakon, instead of being escorted by her father up the aisle as was the Norwegian tradition... It was not helped by the fact that he also talked about writing a book about Marius.

The antics of Sven O. Høiby was not something people blamed on Mette-Marit at all.

Thanks TRF moderator!  for you!

[lena123]

The question of Norway becoming a republic is taken up each Parliamentary period by one of the political parties, since Sonja and Harald married, and last vote on that proposition in parliament was in May this year - the proposition gained 17 yes votes (for republic and 125 no votes (against republic).

This is very interesting!   I had read that when Haakon VII was offered the throne, that he first insisted there be a referendum to determine if the people of Norway actually wanted to retain the monarchy , but I had no idea that this was an ongoing process.

In view of that, this story I came across is even more interesting:
http://www.newsinenglish....stirs-debate-on-monarchy/

On the same website

But if a monarchy is weak, one consort, popular or not , will not change a lot. In Norway, it seems that monarchy will just die on its own, quietly, without revolution, because the society seem to want it this way.

On the same website, I found this article:
http://www.newsinenglish....t-new-media-indifference/